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DNA hunters has opened Viking grave in Normandie

Normandie, France.Normandie, France.Professor Emeritus at the University of Oslo, Per Holck, (T. H.) and Andaine Seguin Orlando by DNA lab Centre for Geogenetics at the University of Copenhagen was Monday in Normandy and opened the graves of two of the Viking leader Rollo of Normandy their descendants..Photo. Vegard Strømsodd/Explico / NTB scanpix

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Norwegian researchers have finally got to open the tomb of the Viking leader Rollo’s descendants. They will find out whether Rollo was the same Rollo as Rollo from Møre. In that case the British royal family originaed from Norway.

A Norwegian-led delegation was in Normandy on Monday and opened the sarcophagus of two of Rollo’s descendants. The aim is to put an end to a centuries-long debate: Was Rollo Danish or Norwegian?
– We have been working to get this investigated in about seven years, so to finally get collected material to test DNA was huge  historian and project initiator Sturla Ellingvåg of the foundation Explico said.
Rollo was the founder of Normandy, Count of Rouen and great great great grandfather of William the Conqueror, who is the ancestor of the English royal house. While  Norwegian-Icelandic historical documents and historians have argued since the Snorre Sagas that Rollo and Rollo are one and the same person, the Danish historians believed that he came from Denmark. Rollo,  the son of Rognvald was exiled from Norway and was said to have settled in France.
Plucked out teeth
In January the French authorities and the French church granted the Norwegian application to open the tomb of Rollo’s grandson and great-grandson, Duke Richard the fearless and son Duke Richard the good. The tomb is a sarcophagus in the floor of a monastery in Fécamp. When they opened the grave Monday, researchers found, among other things, a lower jaw with eight teeth in the tomb of Richard the good:
– The key is to find teeth, for the DNA of the teeth may, even all these years, be sufficent for a DNA analysis. Two forensic experts from Norway and Denmark snatched five of his teeth and those teeth are now being sent to the Institutes of Forensic Medicine in both of the countries for analysis,  Chairman of Samlerhuset and The Norwegian Mint, Ole Bjørn Fausa says.
A result of the analysis will probably be available in the autumn and will be presented in cooperation with the French authorities. So it remains to be seen whether the results indicates Denmark or Norway.
The small sarcophagi at first glance looks like they only accommodate toddlers, but Fausa explains:
– When they were buried in a floor, it was a matter of space. The most important thing was to preserve the skeleton. We do not know how this was done here, but it was common to either cut the bodies into pieces or boil them so the meat loosened from the bones. This meant that the  the sarcophagus didn’t have to be longer than a femur, which is the longest bone in the body,  Fausa says.
Rare event
Fausa describes the atmosphere at the tomb as an amazing experience:
– As far as we know this is only the second time since the war that a king’s tomb has been opened in France. Just being a part of it, and find the skeletons in there, it was exciting, solemn and unreal at the same time.
In the work process, he also found that he is a 35th generation descendant of Rollo.
– Of course it enhances this experience, to know that this was my ancestors, Fausa says.
If Rollo and Rollo proves to be the same person, it will be of historical significance:
– If the British royal family originates from the northwest coast it will, among other things, change the notion that the Norwegian royal family is young, with origins from the British and Danish, says Fausa.

 

Source: NTB scanpix / Norway Today

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246 Comments on "DNA hunters has opened Viking grave in Normandie"

  1. Thor Andrew | 2. March 2016 at 21:14 |

    Looking at the English royal family, and the Vikings, lets hope there is no connection because Rollo would be rolling in his grave at what his bloodline has become !

    • burntcopper | 2. March 2016 at 22:33 |

      *shrugs* two of the latest are decorated soldiers, two of the women are/were olympic level athletes, the family is unbelievably rich and rules over millions, *and* the level of pomp given to their funerals and state events is beyond what even Rollo could dream of (although without all the human sacrifices). Pretty sure he’d be fine with that.

    • Geez people England isn’t the only island in Europe. The Spanish Royal family is form Rollo too along with a whole slew of Spanish knights.

    • Kay Marshall | 30. January 2018 at 02:19 |

      Like so many I suppose Rollo is supposedly my great grandfather 27th who really knows? Be interesting to see the results.

    • What is wrong with our Royal family, you sound a pretty nasty person. Who the hell was Rollo some saint? I would guarantee he loved to rob, murder and rape to lord it over people, they all did back then. He would have rolled over many times by now, generations of descendants have lived and died and do you seriously believe they were all good men and women? What a joke.

  2. gerald sinclair | 3. March 2016 at 04:15 |

    Well that could solve a few more questions than just the Royal family e.g. some Sinclairs are adamant they descend from Rollo, others think they may have just ‘adopted’ an ancestor not an uncommon practice. If all the families whose claims of accompanying William the Conqueror across the Channel were correct he would have needed a fleet 10 times the size! Years ago one contacted me re helping finance doing what is being done but he could not get access, so glad someone has.
    Puzzled how one knows he is 35th generation from Rollo when the DNA results are not even in yet.

    • david watkins | 30. November 2018 at 05:06 |

      Those who came over with William the Conquerer were often his relatives. If they were given lands the chances improved that they were relatives. Richard of Saint-Clair and Brittel of Saint-Clair are both mentioned in Domesday Book which was King William’s book listing who had property for assessing taxes. The Sinclairs and King William I of England are both in my ancestors. If and how they were related is still uncertain. It would be nice if nice if the Sinclairs, the english royal family, the dukes of Normandy and either the 9th century Kings of Norway or of Denmark can all be linked by DNA.

  3. Sigrid Lund | 3. March 2016 at 10:33 |

    This is crap. Norway and Denmark didn’t exist in the viking age. It is anachronistic and unscientific to think in terms of 19’th century nationalism.

    • Did not exist, what do you mean by that? Was there no land of people in the areas now termed Norway and Denmark?

      • Sigrid Lund | 5. March 2016 at 22:10 |

        There was indeed land and people, but they didn’t think of them selves as Norwegian or Danish because these two nationalities had not been invented yet.
        Now if these people where on a Viking raid in the British isles the locals would have called them Danes and if those same people where on a Viking raid in France the locals would have called them Norman. It doesn’t matter if they came from Seeland or Trondelag or Gothland.
        Eventually the language we to day know as “old norse” or “norrønt” adapted the name it was called in the British isles and is therefore in the Icelandic medieval literature known as “Danish tongue”. That would not have happened if “Danish” had been a distinct nationality.

        • Martin Christensen | 11. July 2016 at 17:35 |

          But the same could be said even in other cases when there was a country with the same name, since countries of today hardly have any resemblance with countries of the same name a thousand years ago, and it is only nationalism that makes us speak of it as the same country. But the historical connection exist no matter if the country was formed or not and so does ethnicity that we can trace to certain areas, but of course doesn’t conform to country borders.
          That said, is it actually known with certainty that Denmark and Norway didn’t exist at that time at least as names for what is somewhat the areas in question and possibly as unified countries. The first mention we have of Denmark is ca. 960-985, not that long after Rollo lived?

          • Ruth -Anderson | 23. February 2018 at 15:20 |

            I have traced my family back on one line to Frame, a Viking in 749 in Normandy France. Has anyone heard of Frame, is he related to Rollo or other Vikings? The family name is du Plusses, and were prominent in the area. I would appreciate any and all help.

  4. Well, the British Royal Family is Saxe-Coburg on the male line. They originated from Germany.

  5. Keith Elliot Hunter | 3. March 2016 at 12:38 |

    What utter nonsense. The Queen’s ancestry on the distaff side goes back to the Stuarts, who were of Celtic/Breton origin (L21 subclade) descended from Walter fitzAlan, the son of Alan fitzFlaad, the seneschal to Breton archbishop of Dol de Bretagne. When his male line in direct descent died out.

  6. Ah, well, both the Queen & Prince Phillip are also descended from King Harold Godwinson, last king of the English as they carry the blood of Valdemar King of Denmark who was himself descended from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gytha_of_Wessex

    • Mitch Crow - Raven le Maven | 23. April 2016 at 19:01 |

      …and I am descended from Rollo’s ancestors – and I’m predicting DNA to be R1b-L1066 based on my own, personal research leading me there, from what began as a typical, simple genealogy hobby. @Redrum_of_Crows

      • lorna Davis | 30. June 2016 at 22:33 |

        Interesting, will wait to see the DNA results. According to my tree I am a descendant.

        • Hi my surname is CLIFFORD derived from marriage PONS/ DE Toeni after 1066 so we are from Normandy My DNA is I-M223 from Scandinavia all points east I am trying to find Pons DNA Logically I- M223 but not always certain your thought would be most appreciated Kind Regards John Clifford

          • Hello John! I am a Toney, descendant from the De Toeni who settled in Normandy. Hello, distant relative! 🙂

          • Hello,
            I am a Clifford Descendant in Australia.
            Walter De Clifford 1113 married Margaret De Toni 1118.
            The same line I do believe.
            I would be interested to hear from you John.
            Regards Natalie

          • I’d give up on the Viking Norse thing ! It looks like William the Conq was of Briton descent maybe his ancestors took off after the Roman invasion ! A lot of the so called Norman families have DYS 390 at 24 R1b

          • Kim Dawtry | 10. July 2017 at 12:30 |

            I think the reason so many present day descendants are a branch of R1b is due to the male lines dying out, the Percy family are an example of that where there were no male heirs from around 1200, if not earlier. In the 12th century, there was a Percy heiress, Agnes de Percy, who carried the family forward, she married Joscelin de Louvain, who then took the arms and surname of Percy. So, any make heirs would carry his male line DNA, and not that of the original Percy males. I believe there were further breaks in the male line if you research the whole family history, the Royal family are a good example of this too. It happened to many of the old Baronial lineages unfortunately.

          • William the Conq was of British descent they exhumed his Norman relatives bones and found British DNA which didn’t fit their Viking narrative ! William the second his son is buried in Winchester a much better source if they are serious . The vast majority of the French Norman invaders were Britons eg. The Stewart’s ! The likes of Ralph Fiennes are not of Norman descent in the male line ! My Ancestor Phillip D’Aubigny who is buried at the Chur of the Holy Sepulchre was a Briton ! Alfred the Great was a Briton . Viking DNA is a load of bunk as there were thousands of Britons in the Roman army serving all over Europe and they were a seafaring people long before the Romans as evidenced by Port Setanti !

          • Kim Dawtry | 11. July 2017 at 09:35 |

            I had no idea they had exhumed close family of William the Conq, they have a death mask for him in the Tower of London, and I have to say, he doesn’t look very Scandinavian, but I’m not sure if this is a genuine death mask, or a made up one. In theory he should have been a Viking descendant from the great Rollo himself, but with so many broken lines, who’s to know. His son would be a great place to start, and there the lines ends, as the next to take the succession was from a female of William’s family. A lot of them were indeed Bretons it seems. the d’Aubigny family are an interesting lot, I have a feeling that’s recorded somewhere about them being Breton, with the Bigod family being Viking stock. I would love to see an extensive DNA project in the areas of Normandy associated with these families, the Scandinavian DNA is there I’m sure, just not in the places they have focused on in the past.

          • There are also Briton Genes in Portugal ! As I said before we “were ” a seafaring race long before the Scandinavian Germans ! All the Crusader graves at the Sepulchre were desecrated by the Muslim Caliph except for Phils whose ghost ( Ka) appeared and scared him so much he stopped the desecration ! This obsession with Viking Blood doesn’t appeal to me they were slavers who traded Children Russian in Constantinople ! Most Scandinavian blood in Britain is female!

          • Kim Dawtry | 12. July 2017 at 09:20 |

            I have to disagree here I’m afraid. There are various branches of particular haplogroups that originate in specific countries and areas, Yfull is a good group to look at for examples of this. Not all Scandinavians descend from Slavs. I know I’ve mentioned it before, but when my Dads DNA test came back, he fell into a group which is small, rare, and specific to Scandinavia only. Our family history is Norman, and the cluster we match most closely is the Western Norway group. We do have one of our group who has Normandy ancestry too, he hails from Mayenne , the only French man so far with matches in Western Norway that I know of. It now looks as if our haplogroup is a very old Scandinavian one. I don’t think people are wrong to assume a Viking ancestor if their DNA test revels close matches there and they predominate, even if that ancestor may have entered Scandinavia with the Slavs, you have to look at the bigger picture. I know what you mean about origins though

          • You missed my point ! My point is there were Britons in Norway long before Rollo invaded Norway ! Look up the Surname Hankin in Wikipedia then look up Haakon ! My ancestor Hankin the Good is buried in Peover Chester !

          • Kim Dawtry | 13. July 2017 at 09:30 |

            Sorry Arthur, I thought you meant Breton for some reason. Yes, there would have been people of British origin in Scandinavia, but I always thought they would have arrived there through trading and slavery, but who knows. Great name that, Hankin the Good by the way, and an interesting surname.

          • Kim I don’t think British male slaves would be allowed to breed with Scandinavian women , my point is the gene probably arrived at the start of the Dark Ages ! The Angle nobility of Northumbria graves unearthed by Prof. Pryor of Oxford tested for DNA showed indigenous Briton for the males and Scandinavian DNA for the woman buried with them these people were Pagans ! The oldest boat unearthed in Britain in the Humber was thought to be a Viking boat but Radio Carbon dating proved it was a two thousand years before the Viking era ! The so called Viking DNA of Scandia that is not R1b is more Slavic ( slave race in Latin )than Germanic ! Read the Anglo Saxon Chronicle on Alfred the Great and tease arch it and you will find the founder of the Wessex dynasty was a Briton Cerdic ! There were no slaves in Britain till the Romans arrived ( Tacitus Germania and Britain ) . (ps the seax was a mass produced sword that was adopted by pagan Britons after the Romans left ) The Germanisation of British History started with Archbishop Stubbs to popularise the House of Hanover who if you can believe Prince Charles are more Transylvanian ! Google him in Romania talking about Vlad and Elizabeth Countess of Hungary his ancestors ! Arthur

          • Kim Dawtry | 13. July 2017 at 14:49 |

            Very interesting indeed Arthur, I had no idea. I guess we have always been a seafaring nation being an Island, so it makes sense. Who’s to know really, and it’s a shame the analysis from Fecamp turned out the way it did, otherwise we might have finally had some answers. There is a lot more to learn historically, and sometimes DNA tests help fill in those gaps. I also know what you mean about the Slavic/Germanic DNA in Scandinavia. My Dads norse group seems to be the exception to the rule, and it’s still an enigma, some feel it’s very old and was in Scandinavia long before the arrival of others, and the other theory is that it arrived along the same route as the Goths. Again, we may never know, but ancient burials often help. Haha to Prince Charles, and no comment 🙂

          • Eyvind Eliassen | 12. July 2017 at 10:26 |

            R1b is the most common haplogroup in western Europe. As many as 33 % of norwegians are R1b. So one can not really conclude anything about Williams and Rollos origin from this group, I think.

          • Kim Dawtry | 12. July 2017 at 12:41 |

            This might help explain the origins and spread of R1b, http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml as you say Eyvind, it’s very widely spread, and it’s origins in Scandinavia could have come from anywhere, Celtic slaves, Goths, or it may have always been there. I always say DNA test as far as you can go on your male line, it pulls in all your matches and narrows down the place of origin of your most distant ancestor. I have an R1b in my family project(broken line), and we now know, his ancestor was of Breton or Normandy descent. It’s another small group ( just 3 families), and all of them carry Norman ancestry, one a landed family in Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the other spreading from Normandy to Italy in the Crusades, their family history appears to have been documented. We know from records this Dawtrey line ended with two females around 1400, the DNA test results showed a shared ancestry with one of these other R1b families around 550 years ago. This family had land in the area these particular Dawtreys were living in West Yorkshire, so I can only assume a female Dawtrey kept her name after marriage to one of their family. We have only been able to discover this though individual SNP tests at YSEQ, the BIG Y test at FTDNA, and then a transfer of results to the amazing Yfull company who then work out a time to shared ancestor, though sometimes it can be a little or a lot out due to varying mutation rates. Overall, the results so far, are pretty good, and they are refining them all the time.

          • Eyvind Eliassen | 14. July 2017 at 10:59 |

            The Q-haplogroup is believed to have spread to Western Europe with the Mongolian Huns. Could it be that they invaded Scandinavia at some point before the Viking area? The sagas actually says that the Vikings came to Scandinavia from east.

            The Huns were strongly attached to their horses, so it is reasonable to believe that they brought them.
            The original Viking horse, the still existing Nordlands horse, is in fact a Mongolian horse race.

            It seems unlikely that a mix between Mongolians and Germanics should produce people with blond hair and blue eyes, but you never know. It would certainly explain the reputation of the Vikings as a tough and vicious raiding and plundering people, just as the Huns were.

          • Kim Dawtry | 14. July 2017 at 12:21 |

            Hi Eyvind. That has long been my theory about the presence of haplogroup Q in Scandinavia, and I don’t think anyone knows for sure, even though Q has been found in Hun burial sites. I don’t think they have been able to analyse the samples to such an extent as to find out which branch of Q they belonged to which is a shame.

            I’m not sure if you are haplogroup Q or not, and if you are, which group you might be in L527 or L804? L527 seems to be concentrated around Gotland in Sweden, and for a long time Eupedia classed it as being of Hunnic origin. The group my Dad belongs to is more of an enigma it seems.

            It could be the Huns arrived before the Germanic tribes, or maybe they were Scythians. I’m hoping one they we will find out. I agree with you about the Sagas, and the belief the Viking era Scandinavians had that their origins were from Turkey or Turkic. At the moment it seems people are focusing solely on the science, which is fair enough as without matching DNA from ancient burials, there is no hard evidence that the Q in Scandinavia came via the Huns. However, with it being found in Germany and Switzerland, plus new samples now in Denmark, it does make you wonder. You then start to wonder if they may have been an elite an early ruling class in Scandinavia, but they might be pushing it 🙂

            My Dad, and most males in my direct line are blue eyed, tall, but often with dark hair, however, I have cousins whose line shows them to be small and dark, so it’s hard to know what our distant ancestor would have looked like. I expect with mixed couplings, then even a first child could be born blonde haired and blue eyes, genetics is a funny thing. Our Paynel cousins seem to have been lethal killing machines, taking part in the harrying of the north with William the Conqueror, and some of my family bred horses, and trained armies in archery. in the early years after the invasion.

          • Eyvind Eliassen | 14. July 2017 at 11:25 |

            A genetic study shows that the Mongolian horse and the Nordlands horse, parted about 1000 years ago. This fact strengtens the theory of an Hun invasion to Scandinavia.

            http://www.lyngshestlandet.no/images/Bj%C3%B8rnstad_et_al_2003_Mongolsk.pdf

          • Kim Dawtry | 14. July 2017 at 12:25 |

            That’s interesting. At Yfull it seems all branches of Q-L804 emerge around 200 AD in Scandinavia, but this could be a bit later, sometimes they are quite a way out, even by hundreds of years we’re finding with those who have a known paper trail. Not sure if those figures help at all?

  7. Dennis A, Dispenza | 4. March 2016 at 02:26 |

    Lived in Norway(?) or mountainous village as a woods man in an earlier life from 1700-1740. Some Paleoarchaeologists and others believe Scandinavia and Norway were inhabited hundreds of thousands of years ago by H. Sapiens who go back in time several millions of years, even before H. Erectus, Neanderthalers, other primitive H. etc. Scandinavian legends and mythology could support this idea.

    • This is the most informed comment that I have seen yet on this. The DNA deck was shuffled LONG before there were “Vikings” or any nationalities.

  8. Agreed with two comments and thought the same thing whilst rreading the article. How does he know he is 35th gen descendant when the DNA hasnt been analysed yet and in viking age wasnt the land Germania? Not separate smaller countries yet?

  9. Very interesting. I bet that Rollo was a native of Norway.

  10. legal eagle | 5. March 2016 at 19:31 |

    Was it an oversight that Rollo was a traitor? He became Count of Rouen by having his own countrymen assassinated and agreeing to fight against his own.

    • Eyvind Eliassen | 17. July 2016 at 16:15 |

      Thats from the Viking TV series. In reality Normandy became more like a viking colony, with people imigrating from Scandinavia for generations. Rollo did stop attacking Paris, but he and his viking army continued more or less as independent contractors, raiding all over Europe.

  11. Jen Moore | 7. March 2016 at 03:15 |

    I believe that Prince Charles is T2B6 on his mother’s side

    • My mother was Irene Moore of Op, Covington Co., AL M Aubrey A. Carr. In the Icelandic Sagas I find kjar; the Norwegian spelling for Carr; in France, Carre and Hebrew, Kir.

  12. So… What did they found out? Did Rollo come from Møre or Denmark?

  13. I think this is great a very interesting blog I am I- M223 Normandy Offshoot of the PONS / POINTZE French family we are related to Rollo my surname is Clifford it derived from Pons marrying into the Toeni family of Clifford castle in Heredfordshire England owned by Toeni, Pons changed his name to De Clifford about 1066,8 dropping the De some time later info from The House Of Clifford.

  14. Frank Morreale | 24. March 2016 at 05:19 |

    When will there be an update? Is there a person or site that can give updates?

  15. N Certain | 2. April 2016 at 23:17 |

    Arguments in this blog about whether Normans originated from Norway vs Denmark…or Brit royals as descendants of Rollo-Vikings vs Stuart-Celts are interesting and fun, but maybe a little missing the nuance….perhaps also the overall point. First, British royals (and anyone else for that matter) are complex genetic mixtures; in fact, William I’s descendants married back into Saxon royal family…so add Saxon, Angles, and others to your Norse, Celt genetics. Likewise, I’d bet there was a lot of mixing and sex between “Norwegian” and “Danish” Norse peoples in earlier times (Sigrid Lund makes a good point above, by the way). Second, a focus on male forbears ignores human biology: the Y chromosome contributes few genes relative to the other 23, so women’s genes are just as important…in fact, maybe a bit more given bigger role of mitochondria genome in biology. Third, cultural influence and inheritance may be even more important…and here too, our cultures are not only complex mixtures and fusions, but also subjects of continuous and tortuous evolution. All that said, the bigger point about these studies….what makes them really interesting…is they could directly test the idea that Norse peoples had significant influence on this cultural evolution, not just in England but more broadly in Europe.

  16. Good read BUT on this two many downers I come from Pointz / Pons / Clifford DNA IM223 wishing for some one to tell me I am Norwegian / Danish I-M223 is or I have read very old , I know we are FRENCH / NORWEGIAN or DANISH that,s about it , Love to say I am a Viking Kind Regards John Clifford

  17. Eyvind Eliassen | 11. April 2016 at 12:05 |

    Prior to the unification processes of Denmark and Norway, people were moving more freely within Scandinavia. It is, I believe, actually quite possible that Rolf Ragnvaldsons grandfather, Eystein Glumra, moved from Denmark to Norway. Rolf Ragnvaldson would then have all danish genes in the male Y-chromosome.
    Rolfs family became earls of the Orkneys, including parts of Scotland and Irland, where they ruled for centuries, and they probably left few genetic traces in Norway. It would therefore be difficult to connect the genetic findings to Norway, I believe, without including the Orkneys.

    • Hi Eyvind good blog on Rollo I am very interested in your site My surname is Clifford of Pons originally Northern France cant wait till the Richard 1/2 results comes out I am FTDNA I-M223 dreaming of having a link to Rollo but I might be always dreaming, but I can say I Am A Viking for sure Kind Regards John Clifford

    • Good comment. Thanks.

  18. Please disregard my EM today I did not realise you responded the other day J Clifford

  19. Bert Turglar | 17. April 2016 at 15:25 |

    I have a 50/50 bet the snp will be YDNA snp will be L1066.

  20. I agree with Sigrid Lunds post above. I just finished reading Dick Harrisons Swedish History 600-1350. He point out that i.e. Icelandic saga writers project Nordic nations in times before they existed. His main argument against Icelandic sagas as historic sources is that they are not contemporary, written hundreds of years after the events they describes. Conflicts between family grouping have been described as conflicts between nations. These family groupings involved people from what we now see as Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Sweden did not really exist as a nation before Birjer Jarl united it with force after AD 1250.

  21. Paul Van Gestel | 3. June 2016 at 12:21 |

    Does anyone knows what sort of dna test they will do? Perhaps as deep as the Big-y ?, and is there a website where we can follow the course of this adventure? My Haplogroup is R-Z27257, so maybe Danish or North German origin.
    Thanks, Paul

  22. Sir Edmund of Ham | 21. June 2016 at 19:19 |

    YDNA results please, it really shouldn’t take this long.

  23. You may get a shock , the Setantii tribe were noted for their seafaring long before the North Germans .

  24. Sir Edmund of Ham (Sandwich Islands) | 8. July 2016 at 00:51 |

    The suspense is killing me, I’m expecting something under R1B1A2A1A1B4…..old school.

    • Hi this is old news Autumn has been spoken as the results coming out The suspense is killing me also Good luck in the Autumn

    • Øyvind Eliassen | 13. July 2016 at 11:05 |

      It does not really matter much if Rollo was “Danish” or “Norwegian”, I think. Scandinavians were all mixed at that time anyway. But it is important to be able to identify him as the historical character Walking Rolf Ragnvalsson, as written in the islandic and orkney sagas, and not some unknown prince from Danisia as claimed by the frensh historian Dudo. The border between mythology and history of most of the royal families and nobility of Europe will than be moved a genereation or two, as we know a quite deal about Walking Rolf and his relatives.

      But I do not think that a geographical analyzis of the Y-chromosome will give any result, because there is a probability that Walking Rolfs grandfather could actually have moved from «Denmark» to «Norway». Walking Rolf would than of course have all «danish» genes in the Y-chromosome.

      There are however very few traces from this family in Norway today. But Walking Rolfs brother, Einar Ragnvaldsson (Thurf Einar) became earl of the Orkney, where his descendants lived for centuries.

      As far as I know, most of the clans and nobility of Scotland descend from him. I believe the only way to prove that Rollo was identical to Walking Rolf would be to find any direct descendant from one of these families and compare With the DNA findings.

      If anyone know of any direct male descendant from the Orkney Earls, I would be happy to inform the investigation team about it.

      • It has been suggested That Clifford / St Clair /& 25 other Normandy names have links with W/C as do millions of none researchers claim, but Michael Maglio,s Origin Hunters well worth considering,Also Sinclare DNA, If any one can help me I wish to know PONS / POINTZ DNA as they were the for runner French name creating Clifford abt 1070

        • Eyvind Eliassen | 16. July 2016 at 20:47 |

          Maglios report is just based on DNA from people living today, believing to be descendants of Rollo (or rather William the Conqueror, his great, great grandson). This is then of course very uncertain information.

          Also Maglios conclusion that Rollo was danish, does not take into concideration the fact that the vikings did settle quite freely within all of Scandinavia before Norway, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark became separate nations. A geograpichal DNA study of the male Y-chromosome would therefore, of course, also be very uncertain.

          However, the Tribemap markings in Maglios report, indicating where we can find descendants of Rollo today, does actually match the geograpich places connected to Walking Rolf Ragnvaldson strikingly well, both in Norway and in northern parts of Scotland.

          Maglio also mention a previous imigration from “Denmark” to the western part of “Norway”, leading further to the invasion of the northern parts of Scotland. This must clearly have been Walking Rolf family, who bacame earls there, ruling this area for centuries. Walking Rolfs father was earl of Møre (More) in the west coast area of Norway.

          I believe that Maglios report migth be true, but his conclusion calling Rollo a dane is wrong.
          If this is the right DNA, it rather indicates that Rollo actually was identical to the notorious norwegian viking chieftain Walking Rolf Ragnvaldsson, and that one of his forfathers, most probably his grandfather Eystein Glumra, had previously moved from “Denmark” to “Norway”, accounting for Walking Rolfs “danish” Y-chromosome.

    • Eyvind Eliassen | 16. July 2016 at 21:07 |

      The Sinclair clan most probably descended from St Clair in Normandy. They arrived after William. So they are not descendants of the Møreearls of Orkney.

    • Eyvind Eliassen | 17. July 2016 at 00:23 |

      I am actually more curious about the name Sir Edmund of Ham. I know that the Sandwich Islands are far away, but the name Ham is found serveral places in the Orkney and Shetland region. Could this name stem from the old norse word Hamr, meaning “skin” or “shape”?

  25. FTDNA project I-M223 called Doggerland Land become The North Sea covers I=M223 you have to join good Admins a lot of comments my tree goes back to Rollos time The French name Pons / Pointz married into a French family living at Clifford castle Herefordshire England called De Teoni Walter 1 fitz Pons married Margaret de Toeni her dowery was Clifford castle so Walter fitz Pons became Walter 1 became de Clifford about 1070 by changing his name to Clifford the first Clifford name

  26. Doesn't matter | 9. July 2016 at 23:38 |

    Is the Man on the right wearing gloves?

    • Dingle Thornberry | 13. July 2016 at 02:23 |

      Yes, they are clear. Don’t try and say the results are contaminated because he doesn’t match your haplogroup…what is this the OJ trial x2…

  27. David Boone | 13. July 2016 at 02:01 |

    What website (if any) will follow the progress of this project

  28. Kim Dawtry | 15. July 2016 at 13:45 |

    My Dealtry family are said to have a Norman origin, the name originally was de Hauterive, and then became de Altaripa in Latin, before landing at the anglised version of Dealtry and Dawtry. Records can be found for our family as far back as 1020 in Normandy, then after the conquest, they appear in charters in Yorkshire always with the family of the Baron Ralph Paynel in the early days. One branch of the Paynels held Hauterive in Normandy, and went by the name of Painel de Hauterive. Anyway, out of curiosity I tested my Dad’s DNA, he is indeed of Viking origin, with a rare Scandinavian haplogroup of Q-M242. His results imply his ancestor hailed from Norway, but he has a match in the Shetlands too. From his matches, we think his ancestor may have traveled from the More Og Romsdal area in Norway, but as yet we haven’t found the big Daddy of our branch, apart from the man from the Shetlands. I always like to think that Rollo traveled out from the same area of Norway, and our ancestor was one of the men who made that journey with him, so I’m really looking forward to seeing these results, though I guess it may not solve that particular mystery:)

    • Claire banbury | 15. May 2017 at 21:34 |

      Kim, Is there a way I can get in touch with you? My surname is Dealtrey and my dad and I have been slowly slowly researching his family history and surname. We’ve all just had our Ancestry DNA done initially and then if there was anything really interesting Dad was going to do more detailed DNA tests. I came back with 26% Scandinavian not what I expected at all! I’d love to chat to you about anything you know about the Dealtreys. Dad’s are from Yorkshire, West Riding. Raby, Scruton Bedale etc. It’s been a struggle finding any other Dealtreys or similar out there to share info with!

      • Kim Dawtry | 15. May 2017 at 23:41 |

        Hi Claire, are you in the UK, and what company did you test with? The Scandinavian percentage often crops up in those with Viking ancestry You can reach me on kim.dawtry@hotmail.co.uk, it would be great to hear from you. It’s possible you link to us, and I may be able to help you with your tree if you’re outside the UK and having trouble finding records.

  29. Kim Dawtry | 15. July 2016 at 13:53 |

    Sorry, that should have read that my Dad is Q-L804, a Scandinavian branch of Q-M242.

  30. Parched Dry | 16. July 2016 at 05:02 |

    Haplo Group Q for Rollo? That really would be a stretch..I give that one about -1% but it’s ok to wish.

    • Kim Dawtry | 16. July 2016 at 18:32 |

      One last comment, this is the cluster from the FTDNA Q Nordic group which includes the man from Mayenne, you will see how he matches men from Western Norway, Trondelag and More Og Romsdal, a man from Iceland, and then a few from the UK who probably have a Viking or Norman ancestor, we call this the truly Viking group:)

      René Trotry de La Touche 1654-1737 France Q-CTS11969

      N40362 John J Yates 1815 United Kingdom Q-L804
      N110497 Bjarni Magnússon, b 1683 Iceland Q-CTS11969
      87716 Lars Olsen Gottvassli, c.1736-1812, Verran, NTR Norway Q-L804
      267675 Thomas Whelan, b:1871 d:1925 ~ London England Q-L804
      N3541 Peter Sankey ca.1550 England Q-L804
      185943 Ole Olsen Tomren b1834 Fiksdal, Romsdal, MRO Norway Q-L804

  31. Parched Dry | 16. July 2016 at 05:04 |

    I should have added, there is nothing even remotely Scandinavian about haplogroup Q but a simple google search would tell you that.

    • Kim Dawtry | 16. July 2016 at 17:48 |

      I never suggested that Rollo was haplogroup Q, and believe me, there are two branches of Q which are almost exclusive to Scandinavia, I’ll send you links shortly. I’m a genetic genealogist, an administrator for 3 DNA projects through FTDNA, and work closely with other admins in Scandinavia who have created groups for these two branches of Q. One is Q-L527, and the other is Q-L804. They are found in around 5% of the Scandinavian population, L527 is mainly Swedish, but L804 is more widespread. It has also been found in the Shetlands and Orkneys in similar percentages, and amongst some British families of probable Norman descent We also have one man from Mayenne in Normandy who through extensive testing, the Big Y and Yfull, has found his ancestral cousins in Norway, we can pinpoint the exact area his ancestor traveled out from:- https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/qnordic/about/background

      The following are from Eupedia:-

      Q1a2b1 (L527): found almost exclusively in Scandinavia and places settled by the Vikings

      Q1a2a1a2 (L804): found in Germany, Scandinavia and Britain (possibly Hunnic)

  32. Kim Dawtry | 16. July 2016 at 17:59 |

    Q-L804 has its roots in the More Og Romsdal area of Norway we believe, it’s the area of one of the suggested birthplaces of Rollo,or Ganger Hrolf. He is said to have been born on Giske near Alesund, and sagas mention Rollo was born as Hrólfr Rognvaldsson in Møre, Western Norway, in the late 9th century as a son to the Norwegian jarl Rognvald Eysteinsson.

    I am in no way suggesting that my family descend from him, but I’m hoping these DNA tests might show that he was born in that area, to (a) prove the sagas right, and (b) to think our ancestor whoever he was, might have made that journey with Rollo.

    • Eyvind Eliassen | 20. July 2016 at 00:54 |

      As far as I know there are no evidence supporting Giske in south Møre as Rollos birth place. This idea was actually first suggested by a local newspaper reporter over hundred years ago. The inhabitants had actually never heard of this before. But after a while they started believing it. They had even read it in the newspaper, so it had to be true!

      Rolf Ragnvaldsson (presumable Rollo) and his father Ragnvald Mørejarl Eysteinson was actually born in north Trøndelag, more than 400 km north of Giske. Rolfs father Ragnvald Mørejarl Eysteinson was later appointed earl of Møre and Romsdal by king Harald Fairhair. Rolf was probably about ten years old when he moved.
      Most probably the family lived at serveral places within the earldom, a period at each place, continously moving around. So being from North Møre, I strongly reject to this nonsens that Rollo was a South Møring!:)

      Anyway my believe is that Rollos grandfather Eystein Glumra actually originated from Denmark, as I have argued earlier. Therefore I do not think we will find any Q-L804 in the DNA of Rollos Y-chromosome. But he was “norwegian” anyway, and the orkney and the icelandic sagas are still true.

      The reason why you probably will find a lot of Q-L804 in the families originating from Normandy is perhaps that people from this area of Norway followed Rollo to Normandy. And during king Haralds reign and even later, there was a massive imigration from this area to all the viking colonies including Normandy, Orkney, Shetland and Iceland. So you will probably find a lot of Q-L804 also there.

      • Kim Dawtry | 20. July 2016 at 09:44 |

        Thank you Eyvind, that was really interesting, it’s a lot like Chinese whispers then:) A story that started to become fact, they even have a statue of Rollo in Alesund, but perhaps that is more to do with him being Earl of the area as opposed to an indication of his birth origin. How Q-L804 arrived in Scandinavia is a mystery in itself, we know that around 17,000 years ago it shared an ancestor with the native Americans, but then there is a massive gap until our lineage seems to begin in Norway. It appears in northern Sweden too, fairly high percentages as you said in Iceland, and a few random ones in the Shetlands and Orkneys. The man who shares a very distant ancestor with us has the surname McSwain, and he’s from the Isle of Sky in the Hebrides. His family legend is that they descend from an ancient king of Scandinavia, he did tell me the full story once, so I’ll have to see if I can find it in my messages. The current theory is that L804 began it’s journey from Norway then spread to Sweden, though what appears to be an older line has now been found in Germany. My guess is that our ancestor followed Rollo from that More area, but if his DNA shows him to be Danish, there is no way we can prove it sadly. Hopefully the results will be announced soon.

  33. Iam Moist | 16. July 2016 at 20:36 |

    Haplogroup Q, Huns, Native American, etc. etc. and a small pocket from one descendant in Sweden, fascinating stuff. Anyway, Rollo and his descendants will not be found to be haplogroup Q. Also, how can you say your dad is of Viking origin, makes no sense. Vikings raided, ie left Scandinavia but of course some went back. Those that never left to go Viking, are not Viking, pretty simple. And those that moved to Scandinavia after the Viking age are also not of Viking descent. The current Scandinavian population is not a reflection of Vikings, the Black Death wiped out a huge percent of the true Scandinavian population, probably of similar stock to the Vikings. Besides, we can be sure Vikings also comprised multiple haplogroups. Anyway Q? Neah, not a chance.

    • Kim Dawtry | 16. July 2016 at 23:51 |

      That is just one persons theory that it came with the Huns. Where do yet get that it comes from one person in Sweden? This branch of Q has been in Scandinavia for many years, it is found in the Shetlands and Iceland, both early colonies settled by Norwegian Vikings, or shall we say travelers, you need to read the findings of the Shetland Islands project by David Faux, what they discovered there was that there was as much of this branch of Q as there was l1, see this link:- http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1a.html This is more of a reflection of the older population of Scandinavia than the current findings.

      You know, I really give up with you people, we have a family history that we can trace back through land records and charters to just after the Norman Conquest of England, the family is even mentioned in French records before the conquest. We know our family history, and if they arrived from Normandy, and my Dad and other male members of the same branch of our family match men from Norway, Iceland, Normandy and the Shetlands, then yes, he has Viking blood as his ancestor obviously traveled from Scandinavia to Normandy somehow!

      • I want to know how you can “prove” your grandfather was the legitimate Y-DNA contributor to your father. Have you tri-angulated for every one of these 35 generations and worked the genealogies down from each branch to a living male to whom you match. All of Rollo’s line were dead- even before William the conquerer. The only possible living matches to Rollo would be the bastard lines of which there will be NO papertrail. I agree with you that there is a probability that this sample could turn out to be “Q”,but it could just as easily be sythian type “A1b”.

        • Kim Dawtry | 9. August 2016 at 20:39 |

          Hi, I have been running a surname project through FTDNA for a number of years now, testing other male Dawtrys and Dealtrys (another variant of our name) from Yorkshire and elsewhere, (though our main seats were in Yorkshire and Sussex). So far, we have 5 who are all Q-L804, one has proved to be an older line, this we have found through testing novel SNPs at YSEQ. So our shared ancestor is probably around 1400. I don’t know if our family were always this haplogroup, there are so many non paternal events it seems in all families, that we will probably never know without digging up a very distant ancestor:) Our family name was originally de Hauterive , this then became de Altaripa (the latinised version) around 1124 when we find the first charters with our family recorded. As time went by, it became Dealtry and Dawtry, obviously spelt as it sounded to an English ear. My family have been in Yorkshire for hundreds of years, my grandfather born there, and I have his line back to the early 1600s in Pontefract. Through the testing, I found another Dawtry who had also traced his tree back to Pontefract, and the results showed we shared an ancestor around 1700. So, from this results, and that of the Dealtry, we know that at least as far back as c1400, we were haplogroup Q and all shared an ancestor.

          As I’ve said before, I have never indicated that I thought Rollo was my ancestor, only that it’s possible he could also have been a Q if he was from More in Norway. Around 10% of the current population there today are still Q-L804, G also appears in the same percentage. It seems to have a unique gene pool. Of course R1a, l1 and R1b also appear there, but not in the large percentages that are seen elsewhere in Norway. I’m not sure if A1b has ever been found in More, but who knows, anything is possible at this point I’m sure. I agree, there are no recorded male line descendants of Rollo, but you have to bare in mind the number of illegitimates back then, I think its still possible somebody out there will find they are a descendant of the great Viking Cheiftan, but they probably have no idea. The other scenario is that he had male family members with him in Normandy, they should also have been of the same haplogroup as Rollo, but their lines not recorded. The results could be very interesting, or there may be no matches at all.

    • Kim Dawtry | 17. July 2016 at 00:01 |

      As I said before, I am not suggesting Rollo or his family were out of haplogroup Q, just that it has to be considered that if he came from More in Norway to Paris before being granted land in Normandy, then he would have brought men with him from the same area who were haplogroup Q. It was just an argument in support of him having a Norwegian origin over a Danish one, but hopefully once the results are in, we will all know more.

    • Eyvind Eliassen | 20. July 2016 at 09:31 |

      Only a small part of the population went viking. They typically raided during the summer season and stayed with their families in Scandinavia during the winter season.

      The original meaning of “viking” is “warrior”. But today we use the therm in a more demographic sense, denoting the whole culture of Scandinavia from that period.

      It is true that well over 50 % of the population in Norway was lost during the black death. But it did strike quite evenly all over the country. So the percentage of Q-L804 would presumably be the same after.

      Due to pour conditions in the centuries following, there has been very little imigration to Norway. And most people could not afford having slaves from foreign countries. So the genetic contents of the population would be more or less unchanged even today, I believe.

  34. No comments yet so might I be right I-M223 Scan , France , England French family PONS De Toeni I am in the FTDNA Normandy project no comments If I am wrong shoot me down I don’t mind I feel I have Viking blood [ Great site good blogs most enjoyable ]

  35. Kim Dawtry | 20. July 2016 at 10:51 |

    I think we are all just going to have to be very patient and wait for the results to be announced in the Autumn John. A while ago I was told there was a possibility of them being shared in July, but that they wanted to make an official announcement alongside the French in the Autumn. I doubt anything will be leaked or revealed until they are ready to do just that.

    • Eyvind Eliassen | 20. July 2016 at 13:05 |

      Yes, but my concern is that they will find «danish» genes and conclude wrongly that Rollo was a dane, as Michael Maglio did in his study. There is of course no hard evidence supporting the theory that Rolf Ragnvaldssons grandfather actually had moved from Denmark to Norway a couple of generations earlier, and this would seem difficult to prove.

      However in the link mentioned above: http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1a.html
      I read something interesting:

      «Typically those with a Q haplotype will have matches in Iceland, Norway, the Faroe Islands with Orkney showing a much smaller percentage. «

      The Orkney was largely inhabitated by Rolfs family. Rolf brother Einar, who became earl of the Orkneys, eventually owned all land there, where he naturally would have placed his own offspring and family. Being originally of «danish» descendance, we will not expect this family to have the Q haplotype.

      So if there is a match with the DNA of the Orkney people, we will have convincing evidence that Rollo was actually identical to Rolf Ragnvalsson, I believe.

      • Kim Dawtry | 20. July 2016 at 13:46 |

        Let’s hope you’re right Eyvind. Perhaps there is a DNA study specifically for the Orkneys, that might give an indication as to what can be expected, which haplogroups are found there for example. I’m not sure if David Faux breaks it down into islands, but I’ll have a look.

      • Kim Dawtry | 20. July 2016 at 14:06 |

        David Faux wrote this about his findings:-

        First it is plainly evident that the data from the two studies is highly consistent. Secondly,
        the Y-DNA haplotypes (“signatures”) of men from Orkney and Shetland are very similar, as
        would be predicted from a knowledge of their similar history. Furthermore both are quite
        dissimilar to the two regions (Norway and Scotland) which likely provided the vast majority
        of the Y-DNA to Shetland – which makes eminently good sense since the two geographic
        “parental stock” regions differ significantly from each other – and Shetland is more or less a
        statistical amalgam of both. It is interesting, however, that as a result of the Principal
        Component plots (statistical procedure), the authors conclude that, “in light of these
        simulations……Orkney and Shetland have significant Norwegian input but little to no
        German / Danish input” – meaning that there was not evidence of an Anglo – Saxon or
        Danish Viking contribution from any source to the Shetland gene pool. This is an important
        finding in relation to the interpretation of the haplotypes observed in the Shetland Surname
        DNA Project.

  36. Kim Dawtry | 20. July 2016 at 14:09 |

    …and this is where he mentions the percentage of haplogroup I:-

    This study found over 50% of
    the participants with a R1b haplogroup, and a R1a finding in line with that observed by
    Capelli for Norway, as well as a surprising low percentage of those with haplogroup I (well
    below that observed in Scandanavian countries). A very surprising finding was haplogroup Q
    (associated with East Asia and Native North Americans – including Greenland Inuit) at a
    level comparable to haplogroup I. Since the sample size was under 40, we need to be careful
    in making too much of the “surprising” findings – but do need to explain where the Q came
    from.

    • Eyvind Eliassen | 27. July 2016 at 10:23 |

      Interesting.
      So if I am rigth about Rolf Ragnvaldssons grandfather having moved from “Denmark” to “Norway”, it would then be more or less impossible to prove that the sagas were correct about Rollo being identical to Rolf. This family would then have left very few genetic footprints both in Norway and Orkney.
      I hope I am wrong. Just have to wait and see…